phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils

evostars

Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #50,  »
the needle points inwards to the center of the coil. looks like a pretty strong magnetic field, for such a large center hole. I only use 5.94V dc at 0.89A to pulse the coil.

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Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #51,  »
tuning the output coil detunes the centter resonant coil.

when i add 10nF to the output coil and the center coil is also tuned with 10nF the output coil shows half the amplitude of the center coil. must be because only one half is coupled.

the frequency went up from 162 khz(without tuned output cap)
to 223khz (with 10nf parallel added)

also the input current dropped to 0.54A at 5.93v dc.

without the output coil tuned it was 0.89A
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #52,  »
tuning the pulsed input coil doesnt influence anything
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #53,  »Last edited
wait what :wtf:

closing the loop of the output coil (without added capacitance) still gives a resonant sine wave at 224 khz half the amplitude of the center (tuned)coil

I guess this closed loop changes the capacitance/inductance of the output coil, influencing the center coil
tuning the output coil
« Reply #54,  »
I tuned the output coil with 3 different capacitors.

res freq   voltage rise  added nF     voltage rise           dc amps@5,95V
  khz       center coil  outputcoil      output coil
165               235V       open               78V                     0,84A
260               86V           10nF             63V                      0,31A
281               68              6.8               66                       0.23
314               44              4.7               60                       0.16

If the output coil is tuned by adding 6.8nF it gives the biggest voltage rise of 66V peak to peak.
I'm sure if I had the right cap i could tune it even better to a higher voltage. (and then my mind says, what about the current?)

The compass shows a weaker field with the 6.8nF, weaker than no added cap.
So, I wonder should I again retune the center coil...

I also measured the closed looped output coil, that would be a plate.
223khz        128V          ....                38V                     didnt write down the current but I remember it being low.

But much more important... what about the Bemf of the first coil?
I think I need a much higher voltage creating proper bemf to see it influence anything. Like this video of Nelson shows:


https://youtu.be/x5h6NI2nQoQ


Matt Watts

Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #55,  »Last edited
It's got to be amps & volts.  We get the amps from the source, create a powerful magnetic field, cut the power, redirect the strong bemf into the 2nd coil before the magnetic field completely collapses.  The 2nd coil then magnifies & combines the two fields which we collect in the 3rd coil.  The collector coil is tuned to ensure this combining/heterodyning happens exactly right.

Seems so simple to say, so very difficult to do.

It reminds me so much of the Ruslan device in concept, with the only real difference being the use of a separate high voltage source instead of collecting the back EMF.

evostars

Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #56,  »
Quote from Matt Watts on August 3rd, 2017, 01:55 AM
create a powerful magnetic field, cut the power, redirect the strong bemf into the 2nd coil before the magnetic field completely collapses.

Seems so simple to say, so very difficult to do.

It reminds me so much of the Ruslan device in concept, with the only real difference being the use of a separate high voltage source instead of collecting the back EMF.
that back EMF is tricky I wonder if the magnetic field is still there when the bemf is spiking.

I know a diode and a capacitor can collect back EMF from a coil but what if we connect a bifilar coil to that collector cap so it can resonate? using another diode to keep the first coil that produced the bEmf out of the resonant loop?

this bemf is the fuel we need. but im not sure how to play with it. (yet).


 IMG_20170803_104806.jpg - 53.35 kB, 597x389, viewed once.

checking back emf
« Reply #57,  »
got a 1:1 toroid pulse one side with 12v via igbt.

other side back emf via fast diode into 22 series connected caps forming 10nF.

first with 54 % duty cycle i got 74V into the caps. then i went up to 86% this gave 241V dc in the caps. but the input current on the igbt side also goes up.

scope shows 250V spikes so this seems pretty accurate.

the caps are not polarised so they instantly loose their charge via the one diode into earth.
lets see if 2 diodes and no earth keeps the charge in
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #58,  »
i cant store the bemf into the caps. they empty instantly when the back emf pulses are gone.

double diodes (both sides) dont work. caps wont even charge.

best way is one side grounded other side a diode. cap between ground and diode.

I want to see if the caps can connect to a bifilar and resonate. probably not because the ring toroid coil is also connected and it has a magnetic field 84% of the time.
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #59,  »
I do get a resonance but it suddenly collapses when i come near the resonant frequency.
the frequency is much higher aroumd 440khz instead of the 160khz . this must be due to to toroid coil.

the igbt side of the coil also produces back emf.

i will connect both 1:1 windings into one winding and collect all back emf.
but... this also pulses the hole system. no bad idea.

here i am back at the same question.
i want the igbt to pulse one coil collect b emf and feed the parallel capacitor.
but switching wont work.

the igbt pulse should not be connected. only the back emf.

so... back emf from 1:1 toroid into bifilar coil. b emf from coil into next coil. diode... reversed?
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #60,  »
I can pulse one coil with the back emf from the toroid
and let the next coil resonate with the par
parallel capacitor.
it still produces a magnetic field.

i really think i should disconnect the torroid from the system, and only discharge the capacitor (charged by b emf) into the coil.

why? because b emf in a cap seems to be pure dielectric energy without magnetic component.
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #61,  »
i can pulse the first coil

resonate the second (center) tuned coil with the parallel 10nf at 166khz

the back emf from a diode of the first coil can be fed with a single wire into the third coil. doesnt influence the center coil. but does give a resonant sine (with a single wire from the diode back emf no other wires no ground

eh
 :wtf:
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #62,  »
resonant simenof the third coil from the back emf is there
but on the other side of the diode the back emf spike is still there...

ah man. im lost.

beter hook up the power meters again see how much it draws

and place a resistor in the center tuned coil and measure the voltage drop over there (but how? the resonant sine makes every thing a sine wave... )
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #63,  »Last edited
ah wait
the resonant sime shows up at the diode because the coil already pics up the sine of the center coil

and the back emf on the other side of the diode doesnt flow via the coil into ground so it stays there.

also
when i take the back emf after the diode and connect it to the center coil. it kills the resonance but it creates these nice sparks.
normal blue spark but with radiant orangee spikes flying away from the blue spark. 1 to 1,5 cm.

the center coil also isnt grounded so the back emf cant flow away. so... maybe try to connect the back emf again to the center coil while connecting the other end of the center coil to ground.

how do i get that back emf back into the resonamt system?
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #64,  »
if i put the back emf into the center coil,
it kills the resoance because the parallel tuning capacitor fills up with bemf voltage.
it should be switched. no other way.

i could use a joulethief to collect b emf into a cap and use the igbt to switch the cap in and out of the resonant coil with the parallel cap.
joulethief would need to function at a frequency higher or equal of of the resonant tuned coil.

back emf in cap should discharge without being connected tonthe bemf source
back emf straight into coil giving resonant sine without magnetic field
« Reply #65,  »
as i found some old notes, and found my bifilar step up tranformer again,


i hooked it up to my igbt. primary outside has only few windings.

secondary with more windings straight connected to bifilar coil.

the tuned center coil gave a 500v pp at 123 khz resonant sine wave. this time without any magnetic field (!)

so there is a big difference in using the dielectric energy from a back emf to get resonance.

normally with a pulsed bifilar the current is high and the magnetic field ia strong. very strong.

i will have to rewire to see the current draw of the primary.

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Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #66,  »
current draw is still big when i use the back emf. 4.98V dc @ 1.31A

producing a back emf of 400V
and a resonantie sine  at 119khz 45% duty of around 400V pp

when the secondary back emf is connected to the bifilar pancake, the resonant sine of the tuned coil can be seen, with on top the resonant sine of the primary.

next. is connecting the back emf straight to the center tuned (carc) coil. tune the output coils

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Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #67,  »Last edited
connected the carc center coil straight to the secondary with the back emf.
resonance at 152khz 50% duty
sine wave is 250Vpp

current draw is higher, 4.98Vdc 1.96A
compass needle still shows no deviation (as it did do normally)

wait... i have grounded the inside not the outside.
reversed it, no difference.

the top and bottom coil show the exact same resonant sine of the center coil.
but they are still not tuned.
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #68,  »
the tuning of the output coil (again) detunes the center coil.

tuning the outside coil basicly also turns it into a carc.

i added 10.8nF to one of the outside coils.
the resonant frequencies of both coils shifted to 248khz @ 50% duty cycle.

the maximum sine became lower in amplitude.160V pp

so... my best guess is to tune both coils until maximum voltage rise is found again

current also dropped to 1.04A @4.99Vdc
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #69,  »
its good to know the back emf can be fed straight into the resonant tuned coil and bring it into resonance.
That was imposible with the straigh pulsed coil.

but now the big trick. how to pulse one bifilar coil and get its back emf into the next coil.

because then the magnetic field of the pulsed coil creates resonance in the next coil, but also the back emf creates resonance in the coil.

if resonance is the alternation between magnetic and dielectric field energy as can be seen in a lc circuit,
the back emf should be the dielectric resonant part
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #70,  »
nelson quote
you should assume that you need use inductance of a coil to  that could generate considerable pressure (bemf) to fill the tank capacitor with "cold" electricity (without magnetic component) to after could discharge in very sharp pulses in the primary of main bifilar pancake coil.   

ok. so increase inductance of bifilar pancake by adding ferrite paste.

fill "tank" capacitor with back emf. (tank as in part of a resonant circuit? or a separate cap)

"after" discharge into coil.

Nelsons english is bad so grammar... no clues.

I think the back emf is buffered in a separate capacitor so it can be timed properly. into the next resonant coil.

the pulsed coil and the tuned resonant coil are coupled via the magnetic field. which alreaddy gives the right resonance.

when is then the proper  time to discharge the capacitor into the already resonant coil?

I could analyse the system i now have to see how all parts react. and find the right moment to time the discharge of the cap filled with b emf
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #71,  »
im pretty sure the back emf energy should be buffered in a capacitor to be released at the right moment into the resonant coil
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #72,  »Last edited
this is the resonant sine combined with the back emf of the primary, measured at the switch (igbt) side
158.6 khz 47%
4.38V dc 1.90A

the back emf seems to occur around zero amplitude of the sine.

the little peak on the top of the sine is from the square wave pulse going high in voltage.

so the peak of the resonant sine from the back emf occurs when the square wave goes high in voltage.

now lets compare this with a resonant sine from a magnetic pulse. I will connect the next coil straight to igbt and compare the sine wave with the square wave, and see if these are the same. max at start of square wave

Little more info on that pic:
The sine is the resonant signal. pretty clear.
The other signal is to see where the back emf happens. I cant check the secondary, because it is hooked up to the  coil, so i don't get to see the back emf spike. Thats why i measured the primary side, that is hooked to the igbt. this coil should give a back emf spike at the same phase angle.
I then checked with the pulse signal from the generator to see where the pulse would turn off. So the small bump is the square wave turning high voltage (on) and the big (what do you call it? ) is the back emf.

 dielectric back emf.jpg - 70.42 kB, 743x454, viewed 0 times.

Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #73,  »Last edited
too bad... signals are in phase
this pic shows square wave pulse and resonant coil the same a with back emf.

so the back emf can go straight into the resonant coil, or, it can be released from a cap at the same time next cycle (b emf stored for one cycle)


nope NOT in phase

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adding up a magnetic resonant sine, with a dielectric resonant sine.
« Reply #74,  »Last edited
no wait. the back emf is at a different point in the resonant sine.

There is a difference! this means the back emf has to be stored in a cap, and released at the right moment in phase, to line up with the resonant sine from the magnetic pulse.

a bit explained:
When I pulse 1 coil, straight from the IGBT, I can let the next coil resonate.
If I use the back emf of that pulsed coil, I cant straight feed it into the resonant coil. I need to buffer it in a capacitor, and release it at the right moment.

When this is done, the magentic resonant sine, gets AMPLIFIED by the resonant sine of the back EMF. But it has to be timed perfect.

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 dielectric back emf.jpg - 70.42 kB, 743x454, viewed 0 times.