back emf via relais to stepup tranformer

Gunther Rattay

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #50,  »
Quote from Matt Watts on June 28th, 2017, 12:01 PM
I'm seeing similar artifacts with my setup when I turn the power supply off--there are still spikes on the scope with no input power, just the IGBTs opening and closing.  This has to mean there are dielectric fields present that are being messed with; these fields continually try to equalize themselves.  With no current present, they don't do much, but they are certainly registering on the scope.  Open circuit systems like these are just a bit difficult to explain away as noise.  As you can see in my first scopeshot above, there are moments when both switches are open.  During that time, something is finding its way into the coils and/or capacitors.
What do you mean by "switch off"?
interrupt the cable to the circuit or switch off power supply (shut down)?

I ask that because after shutting down buffer capacitors are already charged and it takes 5 seconds for voltage to break down.

Matt Watts

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #51,  »
Power supply is off, no buffer caps.  Power supply has bleeder resistors and pull the voltage to near zero in just a couple of seconds.  Circuit is electrically dead as per conventional science and verified with my DMM.

However, the switching of the dead circuit is still creating impulse spikes on the scope.  These spikes appear to be in excess of the gate voltage driving the IGBT's, so even if a small current is leaking past the gate, it's getting amplified by the coils.  My thinking is the coils themselves are picking up stray energy and the switching at the SRF is magnifying this energy enough to see on the scope.  It's acting much like the tuning tank circuit on a radio receiver.

evostars

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #52,  »
switching? while its dead? how do you do that?

Matt Watts

Output Spikes with Dead Source Power
« Reply #53,  »Last edited
Turn off the power supply charging the cap, but let the switches keep switching.  I did it again just a few minutes ago and there are definite spikes when the coil is connected to the capacitor and again when it is released.  Because the switching time is still set to the SRF of the coil, something is getting into and out of the circuit, probably at points when it's no longer a circuit, but open ended.


I also learned during my last set of experiments, the optimal duty cycle for dumping the cap is definitely 25%.  If the cap completely dumps before this, then duty cycle doesn't matter.

The correct analogy is pushing the child on the swing.  No doubt about it now.


I'm also finding a correlation with the center hole.  Still haven't exactly figured it out, but it appears to be one radius distance between coils.  This is a spot where maximum power transfer happens using minimum input power.  So piece-by-piece I'm starting to get a handle on how we need to situate these coils.  The last part will be actually pouring the high voltage field to them and see if things mix the way we hope.

evostars

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #54,  »
ah wait. we are talking about differnt powersupplies.
one for the capacitor charging,
and one for the switch.

I tought we were talking about the ps of the switch.

but Matt you are talkong about the powersupply of the capacitor?

correct?

and when switching the empty cap you see spikes?

Matt Watts

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #55,  »
Yes, the power supply that is doing all the work.  The little power supply (battery) powering the switches remains connected; without it, there wouldn't be any switching, the gate drivers would be shutdown and the transistors in open-circuit condition.

evostars

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #56,  »Last edited
Good, now its clear, I focused on the ps of the switch...
but its about the ps of the capacitor.

the coil and cap when switched do have a energy collection from somewhere, or else the signals wouldn't show up.

Konstantin Meyl talks about neutrino's as faster then light ring vortices then when slowed down can transmute into electrons.

If a ringvortex slows down, it grows in diameter. this made me think of the unipolar Bemf spikes. would those spikes of voltage, be able to slow down some ring vortices?   Or even better, would such a spike create a ring vortex?
Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #57,  »
A quote from Steinmetz:
In electric circuits containing energy stored in the magnetic and in the dielectric field, the change of the amount of stored energy decrease or Increase frequently occurs by a series of successive changes from magnetic to dielectric and back again from dielectric to magnetic stored energy. This for instance is the case in the charge or discharge of a condenser through an inductive circuit.

So, a capacitor discharge into a coil, sets up an oscillation. This Is why I think to discharge a capacitor into another (empty) capacitor, a inductor is needed, to capture the bmmf (current) in its magnetic field, and set up an oscillation between the dielectric and magnetic energy fields.

but, what then happens with the Bemf of the step up transformer?
the magnetic field energy transformes into a dielectric voltage, but... is then instantly recaptured by the secondary? Via the coupling of the iron core? via the capacitance? 

I dont know...

But I do think the best way to pulse a bifilar coil into resonance might be with the Bemf of a step up transformer. Since it takes so little energy to create kV pulses. I want to see If I can get a bifilar coil into resonance, using these bemf pulses. And compare the energy of the collector coils resonant sine wave, to the input energy needed to create the bemf pulses.


 
Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #58,  »Last edited
A bifilar coil when pulsed with a bemf, can store dielectric energy between its windings. to release that dielectric field energy between the windings, we only have to shortcut the coil.
but the coil is already shortcut... by the bemf coil. So the bemf pulse through the bifilarcoil will be launched as a ringvortex?

hmm... lets hook this up, seems like a good Idea.
IGBT- step up transformer primary- step up secondary (bemf)- bifilar coil
than 2 bifilar coils to collect the energy from the pulsed bifilar coil.

the collector coils need to be tuned down with a capacitor. that cap can also be used for energy extraction.

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Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #59,  »
that didnt work. I guess the impedance needs to be proberly matched.

voltage rise
« Reply #60,  »
after the failed experiment with the step up transformer, I hooked up the speaker wire phi hole bifilar pancake coils again.

I again noticed the differnce in voltage rise of the resonamt center coil when measured at the outside rim(lowest voltage rise) or inside rim (highest voltage rise). the ground was at the other terminal.

then I took the second panacake coil combination and placed it on top.
With this coil I connected both inside and outside coils in series together. making it one big resonant coil.

I again measured the voltage rise. this time the frequency was lower in the 600 khz range. and the voltage was much higher. off scale.

since the dielectric energy is related to the square of the voltage, it give a huge increase of energy.

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Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #61,  »
I need to find out how to match the impedance of the pulsed bifilar coil,
and the bemf creating primary coil. as the step up transformer wont work together with a coil.

I guess the primary pulsed coil is the bifilar pancake, with ferrite on its side, and the secondary is the center blue coil of nelsons setup. I guess the other outside coil should be a bmmf coil meaning its based on a high voltage dielectric creating high current bmmf pulses.

 while the other side is a high curent generating hv bemf pulses.

or.... both sides are bemf pulses, resonating the inside blue coils. I tend to lean to that side first.

a capacitor bmmf discharge into a bifilar coil, with the coil generating a bemf into the center coil. the center coil should be pulsed into its srf.

to do this means the igbt discharging  its capacitor into two series commected phi hole speaker wire bifi coils, with a distanced phi hole bifilar pancakecoil in between.
ferrite paste on the outside of the pancake coils.  and a good dielectric (epoxy) inbetween the center coils distanced windings.

I need to build this center coil.
Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #62,  »
I alse have 10 ferrite rods (for radio frequency) that i could grind up and mix with epoxy to put on the outside coils
Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #63,  »Last edited
I realise my igbt is discharging a 2200uF 12V capacitor into a bifilar coil.
creating impulse currents of 90V.
the coil then creates a bemf into another bifilar coil (that starts resonating a sime wave) due the coupling of the fields.

the igbt can handle 600V so I could step up the voltage of the capacitor and create a much larger bemf and will permit the resonant rise to be bigger.

so... i already was using a bmmf bemf combination all along.

the voltage rise of the resonant coil is again bigger. now voltage isnt power... but why is the voltage stepped up?
from a 12v capacitor to a 90v spike to a 400 V sine? to a 900V rectified dc in a capacitor again...

Matt Watts

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #64,  »
You're peeling away the magnetic in stages, leaving only the dielectric field.  It's the magnetic field that holds back the potential of the dielectric field.  That's nature's balancing force; without it the universe would self destruct.

evostars

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #65,  »
sounds right in the end its pure dielectric.

and the beauty is, this high voltage dielectric sine wave out adjusts to a lower voltage battery by clipping of the peaks of the sine waves.

you can see this when charging a capacitor. the sine wave is clipped less and less until the sine wave is 100% again. thats when the capacitor is full.

So if the sine wave is 20000V we can use a 1000V capacitor as long as we keep the current flowing out the capacitor again by using a load. this way the sine wave stayes clipped and doesnt reach its 20000v destructive potential.

Matt Watts

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #66,  »Last edited
Quote from evostars on July 3rd, 2017, 01:16 PM
you can see this when charging a capacitor. the sine wave is clipped less and less until the sine wave is 100% again. thats when the capacitor is full.
That's when the voltage of the capacitor equals the peak to peak voltage of the sine wave.  In other words, the capacitor has "charged" to the limit of the input signal.
Quote from evostars on July 3rd, 2017, 01:16 PM
So if the sine wave is 20000V we can use a 1000V capacitor as long as we keep the current flowing out the capacitor again by using a load. this way the sine wave stayes clipped and doesnt reach its 20000v destructive potential.
Correct.  One can keep a regulated 100 volts on a capacitor that is being charge by a 20000 volts, merely by dissipating energy back out of the capacitor at the proper rate.  What I suspect though is probably overlooked by many:

What if we stop dissipating energy for a short moment and allow the capacitor voltage to climb to 200 volts, then resume dissipating energy at the same rate.  Does the capacitor voltage drop back down to 100 volts, or does it stay at 200 volts?  Or, does it now continue to increase even further?  If it's the later, then we have just learned something very significant.  Erfinder was hinting at this at OU.com and if he is correct it means energy flow can be increased simply by raising the voltage.

Testing this is a little tricky though because most loads have a constant resistance, which means they will dissipate more energy with higher voltage--self regulating.  We need some kind of load where its resistance goes up when the voltage into it goes up.  A filament lamp somewhat does this, but I'm sure it isn't in exact proportion to the voltage.
Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #67,  »Last edited
If any of the above makes sense, suppose we next take the increasing voltage on the capacitor and step this up creating even higher voltage peak to peak sine waves, that are rectified and put back into the capacitor.  Would we not create a runaway condition?   True overunity?

Wouldn't this actually be a parametric oscillator as Nelson suggests he is using?

As the source input voltage (the capacitor) to the oscillator increases, the output peak-to-peak voltage of the oscillator also increases, which is rectified and fed back to the capacitor.  Essentially every output cycle becomes slightly larger than its previous cycle and it's all controlled by how much input voltage the oscillator has to work with.

evostars

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #68,  »
I need to hook the relais up again and trigger a bucking coil into a bifilar pancake coil, and see how a resonant coil behaves.


the bucking coil cancels out its impedance, and seems to only leave the wire resistance. this is a perfect (impedance) match for a bifilar coil.

Gunther Rattay

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #69,  »
Quote from Matt Watts on July 3rd, 2017, 10:57 PM
Testing this is a little tricky though because most loads have a constant resistance, which means they will dissipate more energy with higher voltage--self regulating.  We need some kind of load where its resistance goes up when the voltage into it goes up.  A filament lamp somewhat does this, but I'm sure it isn't in exact proportion to the voltage.
How about an electronic load with mosfet in analog mode - current & voltage controlled by uC?

evostars

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #70,  »
I hooked up a bucking coil to the relais, and I see spikes, but they seem almost invisible on the scope. the power is a lot higher as expected. 1.5A at 3V.

I want to figure out how to best use the bucking coil pulse. I suspect best would be in the middle of the bucking coils to load and to ground. Basicly a single wire from the middle of the bucking coils through the load (bifilarcoil) into ground.

If so, the bemf pulse would be a ring torroid
Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #71,  »
yep it works.

got a 2200uF cap on the power supply
3.08V 0.82A dc

the relais is driven by the igbt, at 150Hz with a 62% duty cycle square wave.
so the bucking is connected to the cap powersupply for 62%

A single wire goes to a bifilar pancake coil, which is the middle of 3 coils.
the other end of the middle pancake coil is connected to ground.

top and bottom coils are series connected(out phase) to ground and probe.

the spikes are both polarities (also when i use only one resonant coil.

the spikes go way offscale well above 1kV

I think I am going to disconnect the relais, and hook the bucking coil straigh up to the igbt (might be bad idea due to the low inductance, but the energy is still stored in the coil so it should work)

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Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #72,  »
removed the relais, and connected the bucking coils stroight to the igbt.
It works(igbt stays relatively cool) but it is indeed different.
still connected with one wire.

resonant frequency is much lower. 389khz instead of the 600khz im used to with these coils. 225V peak to peak.
but its not a perfect sine.

it behaves differnt then im used to.

going to check all the connections

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Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #73,  »
the amplitude jumps up suddenly.
first it is slowly and steadily rising as the frequency approaches resonance.
then suddenly (1khz steps) the amplitude jumps up to almost double!

Matt Watts

Re: back emf via relais to stepup tranformer
« Reply #74,  »
Double your frequency Evo.  That scopeshot, right at the zero crossing, I see the formation of a harmonic which tells me you are not at the fundamental frequency.

And yes, it will behave differently, at least it did for me.  And if you get what I'm getting, then you can start thinking about how far to separate your two pancake coils.  You should see the definite phase angle change as you pull them apart.